20 JANUARY 1939

NIRODBARAN: Dilip says, about the subject of X's becoming a Buddhist from a Vaishnava, that it is not like that. He does not want to belong to any group or sect.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is understandable.

PURANI: Nothing seems to be given out in the papers about the interview between Chamberlain and Mussolini. Both parties say they are satisfied with the results.

SRI AUROBINDO: I can't understand the present English policy. I don't know what England is after. France is being led by England—she is stuck to her like a tail. They say Mussolini is waiting for Franco's victory in Spain and then he will present his terms to France. Franco's victory will be dangerous for France. But it is very difficult to see how England profits by this. For as soon as Italy and Germany have crushed France, the next victim will be England. England knows very well Mussolini's ambition to create an Italian Empire, and that means he will try to regain all that once belonged to Italy. She is deliberately raising Hitler and Mussolini against France and letting her down. I don't know why, unless the three are going to share the empire of France and then England may try to set Hitler and Mussolini against each other. That will be in line with her traditional self-centred policy of balance of power. But it is a very risky game.

NIRODBARAN: But is it possible? Can England remain aloof when France breaks with the other powers?

SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? Chamberlain has said that so long as England's interests are not involved she is not obliged to fight. She will say that Italy's demands have not been satisfied and so she has gone to war and Germany has joined her: there was no aggression on Italy's part. Hence England is not obliged to come to the aid of France. Any number of excuses can be given. Daladier told Suryakumari's friend, who is also a friend of Daladier's, that he had to betray Czechoslovakia because Chamberlain told him he would support him so long as it was diplomatically possible but in case of war France should not count on England. This piece of information must be authentic, coming as it does from Daladier's own friend.

PURANI: I wonder why Flandin wants to support Franco when Blum is against him. You know Flandin even telegraphed to

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Mussolini his congratulations, etc. Hitler counts on him as a friend. Does Flandin want to join the Rome-Berlin Axis and thus keep England out?

SRI AUROBINDO: How is that possible unless France satisfies Italy's demands? After the Spanish question is settled, Italy is almost sure to claim Tunis, Nice and Djibouti. Is Flandin prepared to give them? Italy wants her empire in Africa. So Tunis and Djibouti are essential points for her and she also wants to be master of the Mediterranean.

Blum is a useless fellow. It was he who as Premier applied non- intervention in Spain.

No, no, it is sheer imbecility to expect that sort of thing. At present it seems that two people are brandishing their arms against everybody and the rest are somehow trying to save themselves. The one man who has seen through the whole thing is Roosevelt, but he is too far off and he is not sure of the support of the American people.

NIRODBARAN: What about Russia?

SRI AUROBINDO: Russia is unreliable. One doesn't know its military strength. At one time it was supposed to have the biggest air-force. But according to Lindbergh, it doesn't appear to be so. The inner state of Germany also is not known. They are trying to conceal everything as far as possible.

PURANI: Jawaharlal says that Hitler and his generals didn't expect non-resistance from Austria. They were all very much surprised.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the generals were opposed to Hitler's plan, for they were not prepared to fight. Now Hitler will say, "Have you seen that I am right? Things have happened just as I told you."

PURANI: Jawaharlal also said that their threatened attack against Czechoslovakia was mainly bluff. All the tanks and machine-guns were only a show.

SRI AUROBINDO: This can't be reliable news. The Germans are too disciplined for such a thing.

PURANI: There is some trouble in Holland. Germany is threatening Holland with cutting off the trade, etc., and establishing a tilde-route through Antwerp instead of Amsterdam.

SRI AUROBINDO: If that takes place, it will make Chamberlain fight in spite of himself and stop talking of peace. England doesn't

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want any German navy in the North Sea. But Germany won't put it there unless she wants war with England.

Then Purani spoke of Russia's canal scheme to connect herself with Asia and also with the Arctic Sea. After that came a mention of some American lady visiting the Ashram in the company of Miss Margaret Wilson and finally some tails in a lighter vein.

CHAMPAKLAL: Haradhan, when he used to work with the Mother, was asked by somebody, "Who are the advanced sadhaks here?" He replied, "I don't know." Then after he had been repeatedly pressed, he said, "I will tell you but you must not tell anybody else. There are only two advanced sadhaks here—you and I." (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: This instance of two reminds me of a joke about Hugo. Balzac is supposed to have told a friend, "There are only two men who know how to write French — myself and Hugo." When this was repeated to Hugo, he said, "But why Balzac?"

There is also the story of a Calvinist lady. The Calvinists have the doctrine that people are predestined to go to either heaven or hell. She was asked whether she knew where the congregation to which she belonged would go. She said, "All will go to hell, except myself and the minister—and I have doubts even about the minister."

21 JANUARY 1939

Again Dr. Rao's visit day. As usual he began the massage and asked Sri Aurobindo about the pain in his knee-joint.

SRI AUROBINDO: The pain is still there.

DR. RAO: That is because you are moving the leg after a long time. It will disappear when you are accustomed to it.

SRI AUROBINDO: Accustomed to the pain? (Laughter)

Dr. Rao could not catch the joke and was a little embarrassed by our hearty laughter. After the massage was over, the Mother came in and we sat down to meditate for about ten minutes. After a while

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Dr. R.ao asked Satyendra if he could stay longer. Satyendra told him he could ask the Mother. Then Satyendra himself conveyed the question to her. She smiled. Then, as it was about 7.00 p.m. and she got up to go for the general meditation, she said to Rao, "Are you coming? I am going to the meditation." R.ao jumped up and followed the Mother.

The talk turned to local politics and afterwards Indian politics and Gandhi and non-violence and Hitlerism.

SRI AUROBINDO: If Gandhi met Hitler, Hitler would probably say to him, "You follow your inner voice, Mr. Gandhi, and I my own." And there is no reason to say he would be wrong, for inner voices may differ and one kind of voice may be good and necessary for one person while the very opposite may be the same for another. The Cosmic Spirit may have a certain thing for Hitler and lead him in the way he is going, whereas it may decide differently in another case.

NIRODBARAN: That may end in a clash between the two and the breaking of the vessels.

Satyeyndra : What of that? Something good may come out of it.

PURANI: I am afraid this would lead to fatalism or belief in destiny.

SRI AUROBINDO: It may. There have been people who have believed in fate, destiny or whatever else you may call it. Napoleon III used to say, "So long as something is necessary to be done by me, it will be done in any case and when that necessity ceases I shall lie thrown by the wayside like an outworn vessel." And that is exactly what happened to him. Napoleon Bonaparte also believed in fate.

Satyeyndra: Yes. When somebody questioned him why, if he believed in fate, he went on planning, he replied, "It is fated that I should plan."

SRI AUROBINDO: All men who are great and strong and powerful believe in some higher force greater than themselves moving them. Socrates used to call this force his Daemon. Demon means divine being. It is curious how sometimes even in small things one depends on the voice. Once Socrates was walking with a disciple. When they were about to take a turn, the disciple said, "Let us go along this route." Socrates replied,

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"No, my Daemon asks me to take that other." The disciple didn't agree and pursued his own way. After he had gone a little distance he was attacked by a herd of pigs and trodden down by them.

There are some people who don't follow the inner voice but the inner light. The Quakers believe in that.

NIRODBARAN: Do they see the light?

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know; but someone has said, "See that your light is not darkness."

The strange thing is that this inner voice doesn't give any reason; it only says, "Do this" or "Do that" and "If you don't do it, bad results will follow." Strangely enough, when you don't listen to it, bad results do follow. Lele used to say that whenever he didn't listen to his inner voice he met with pain and suffering.

PURANI: But there are many kinds of voices owing to the forces on different planes and it is extremely difficult to distinguish which is right, the true inner voice. There may be voices from mental, vital and subtle-physical planes. Moreover, in the same man the voices may differ.

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite true. A friend of Hitler's said about him that what Hitler said today he contradicted the next day. I also heard a voice asking me to come to Pondicherry. But it was not an inner voice: it came from above.

Satyeyndra: Cannot one be mistaken in obeying these voices!

SRI AUROBINDO: It was impossible to make a mistake or to think of disobeying that voice which came to me. There are some voices about which there is no possibility of any doubt or mistake Charu wanted me to go to France so that he might have no further trouble, I suppose. When I arrived at Chandernagore, he refused to receive me and threw me on to Motilal.

NIRODBARAN: But why should he receive you?

SRI AUROBINDO: Because as a revolutionary he was obliged to do so.

NIRODBARAN: Was he a revolutionary also?

SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord, we were together in jail. But perhaps his jail experience frightened him. He was at the beginning a very ardent revolutionary.

PURANI: Nolini says he was weeping and weeping in jail. The jail authorities thought that he couldn't be a revolutionary

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when he wept so much, and so they let him off. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: No, that was not the reason. It was by the intervention of the French Government, I think, that he got his release. At the beginning he was not only himself an ardent revolutionary but also egging others on to revolution. Barin once walked into his house, gave him a long lecture on revolution and converted him in one day!

PURANI: Yes, Barin had intensity and fire at that time. Once I saw him at Baroda with my brother. They were discussing revolutionary plans. I saw that fire in his eyes. I have heard that Nivedita also was some sort of a revolutionary.

SRI AUROBINDO: What do you mean by "some sort"? She was one of the revolutionary leaders. She went about visiting various places to come into contact with the people. She was open, frank and talked freely of her revolutionary plans to everybody. There was no concealment about her. Whenever she used to speak on revolution, it was her very soul, her true personality that came out. Her whole mind and life expressed itself thus. Yoga was Yoga, but it was revolutionary work that seemed intended for her. That is fire! Her book, Kali the Mother, is very inspiring but revolutionary and not at all non-violent.

She went about among the Thakurs of Rajputana trying to preach to them revolution. At that time everybody wanted some kind of revolution. I myself met several Rajput Thakurs who, unsuspected by the Government, had revolutionary ideas and tendencies. One Thakur, Ram Singh, who joined our movement, was afterwards caught and put in jail. He suddenly died there in a short time. Moropant said, "He died out of fright." But he was not a man to be frightened. They may have poisoned him. Moropant, you know, turned afterwards a Moderate. More than one Indian batallion were ready to help us. I knew a Punjabi sentry at Alipore who spoke to me about the revolution. (Turning to Purani) Do you know one Mandale?

PURANI: With spectacles?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

PURANI: I knew him. He became a quiet man later and settled down in life.

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SRI AUROBINDO: It was he who introduced me through someone else to the Secret Society where I came into contact with Tilak and others.

NIRODBARAN: Gandhi once criticised Nivedita as being volatile and mercurial. The Modem Review violently protested and he had to recant.

SRI AUROBINDO: Nivedita volatile? What nonsense! She was a solid worker.

Once she came to the Gaekwar and told him to join the revolution and said, "If you have anything more to ask, you can ask Mr. Ghose." But the Gaekwar never talked politics with me. By the way, he said about me, between my Swadeshi and early Pondicherry periods, "Mr. Ghose is an extinct volcano now. He has become a Yogi."

One thing only about Nivedita I couldn't understand. She had an admiration for Gokhale. I don't understand how a revolutionary could admire him. On one occasion she was much exercised over a threat to his life. She came to me and said, "Mr. Ghose, is it one of your men who is doing this?" I said, "No." She was much relieved and said, "Then it must be a free-lance."

The first time she came to me she said, "I hear, Mr. Ghose, you are a worshipper of Shakti, Force." There was no non-violence about her. She had an artistic side too. Khaserao Jadhav and I went to receive her at the station. Seeing the Dharamsala near the station she exclaimed, "How beautiful!." While looking at the College building she cried, "How horrible!" Khaserao said later, "She must be a little mad."

PURANI:That College building is an imitation of Eton.

SRI AUROBINDO: But Eton has no dome.

PURANI: It is a combination of modern with ancient architecure.

SRI AUROBINDO: At any rate it is the ugliest dome possible.

Ramakrishna Mission was a little afraid of Nivedita's political activities and asked her to keep them separate from its work.

PURANI: What about her yogic achievements?

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know. Whenever we met we spoke about politics and revolution. But her eyes showed a power concentration and revealed a capacity for going into trance.

NIRODBARAN: She came to India with the idea of doing Yoga.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but she took up politics as a part of Vivekananda's work. Her book is one of the best on Vivekananda. Vivekananda himself had ideas about political work and had spells of revolutionary fervour. Once he had a vision which corresponded to something like the Maniktola Garden.

It is curious how many Sannyasins have thought of India's freedom. Maharshi's young disciples were revolutionaries; our Yogananda's Guru also had revolutionary ideas; Thakur Dayanand was a revolutionary, I think, and the Sannyasin who spoke about the Uttara Yogi, the Yogi from the North, was another.

PURANI: Brahmananda of Chandod spoke of driving away the British.

SRI AUROBINDO: Is that so? I didn't know it.

PURANI: It is said that Nivedita wept bitterly because she found that everything the revolutionaries had done to awake the people had quieted down after the arrest of Tilak.

22 JANUARY 1939

Sri Aurobindo surprised Nirodharan by asking him, "What about Dilip's fast?" The day before, Nirodbaran had told Sri Aurobindo that Dilip would fast on the following day which was his birthday. But Nirodbaran had forgotten all about it.

NIRODBARAN: In the morning Dilip took bread, butter, tea, etc., and at noon I hear he went in for a light meal.

SRI AUROBINDO: Fasting with bread and milk?

CHAMPAKLAL: People in Gujarat consider that they can take bread and milk on a fast.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is also the custom in Bengal, isn't it? It reminds me of a story. Nevinson went to see Tilak and said, "Mr.Tilak received me naked in his loincloth." (Laughter)

At the end of this talk, Purani entered.

NIRODBARAN: Purani seems to be bubbling with news.

SRI AUROBINDO: What is the news?

PURANI: No news today. I read two fine jokes on Soviet Russia in a book called Inside Europe. I looked up also what

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Lindbergh has said on the Soviet air-fleet. He says, "The Soviet air-fleet is not so powerful as is thought."

SRI AUROBINDO: In what way is it not powerful?

PURANI: He doesn't say anything more.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is very vague. Does he mean that the aeroplanes are not made of sound material or that the pilots are not well trained? If that is all he says, he doesn't give any information.

In the war between Russia and Japan, the Japanese admitted that the Russian artillery was remarkable: it didn't miss the mark; but the infantry was not so good, for when they got a good opportunity they failed to take advantage of it. On the other hand, the Japanese army is perhaps the best in the world. In spite of overwhelming numbers against them in China, they have been able to conquer. Chiang Kai-shek had trumpeted that he would defeat the Japanese in a very short time. They didn't give any reply, but at the end of each such defeat we find them farther advanced in China than before.

PURANI: They say the Japanese are not good in the air. They missed their targets many times.

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know about that. The Japanese are good at concentrating on one thing at a time, but aeronautic requires concentration on many points at once.

PURANI: Mussolini is asking all Italians to close down their firms in Djibouti and he does not want to send anything by railway: thus he wants to starve the people. He is also trying to cut off the railway that connects Djibouti with Abyssinia and use another road through Eritrea to Asmara. ;

SRI AUROBINDO: That would not make France give up Djibouti. Djibouti is a sea-port and a connecting link between France and her eastern colonies. Even if the Premier and Flandin want to give it up, the French people won't.

After this there was a change in the talk. An American lady's visit to the Ashram was mentioned. Sri Aurobindo said, "She was much impressed by our gardens and other things. She considered the Ashram to be the work of a genius and probably thought that genius doesn't need any finance," A few other remarks were made and then a new subject came up.

NIRODBARAN: We spoke of inner voices yesterday. Is there any standard by which one can judge that a voice is the right one?

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SRI AUROBINDO: What standard? There is no such standard. How can you judge whether a voice is right or wrong?

NIRODBARAN: Then is Hitler right when he hears a voice and follows it?

SRI AUROBINDO: Right in what sense? Morally?

PURANI: Perhaps Nirodbaran means spiritually right.

SRI AUROBINDO: How can one say that Hitler's voice is not right? He has seen that by following it he has been able to get Austria and Czechoslovakia and has been successful in many other things. As I said, the Cosmic Spirit rnay want him to go that way. Even from the standpoint of ethics, one can't say Hitler is immoral. He is very restricted as regards food, is supposed to have no wife or mistress and leads a very controlled life in all respects. He shows qualities which are considered moral. Robespierre was also a moral man and yet he killed many people.

NIRODBARAN: Then what did you mean when you spoke of a true voice?

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, that is the psychic voice. But there can be many other voices from many planes. And how will you say which is right? What would you say of Lord Curzon's decision?

NIRODBARAN; For the Bengal Partition?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Was he right? He thought he had the right inspiration in what he was doing, while others thought he was quite wrong and yet but for his decision India would not be half as free as she is today. So the Cosmic Spirit may after all have led him to do this in order to bring about that result.

There is a Cabbalist prophecy: the Golden Age will come when the Jews will be driven out and persecuted everywhere. So Hitler by his mass persecution of the Jews may be bringing about the Golden Age!

NIRODBARAN: Then has one no responsibility? Can one do as one likes. In that case one becomes a fatalist.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, one can't do as one likes. Everyone is not Hitler and can't do what Hitler does. One acts according to one's nature. Your question reminds me of the story of my grandmother. She said, "God has made such a bad world. If I could meet Him I would teach Him what good laws are." At this grandfather said, "Yes, that is true. But God has so made His laws that if you intend to meet Him with this attitude you won't get near Him." (Laughter)

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When we say that Hitler is possessed by a vital power, it is a statement of fact, not a moral judgment. His being possessed is clear from what he does and the way he does it.

But the spiritual point of view is quite different from the moral. There is no question of right or wrong there. One goes above all standards and looks from a higher plane. But then it is essential to have the perception and feeling of the Divine in all. One can see the Divine in all behind the veil of the Gunas, the Nature qualities. From the spiritual plane one finds that the Gita is right about the Gunas and that man is made to do one thing or another by the action of the Gunas. That is why Ramakrishna said about a visiting Sannyasi that he was tamasic Narayana, God inert. But when another Vedantin came along and brought a concubine with him, Ramkrishna could not keep to the same viewpoint. He asked the Vedantin, "Why do you keep a concubine?" The Vedantin replied, "Everything is Maya. So what does it matter what I do?" Ramakrishna said, "Then I spit on your Vedanta." But logically the Vedantin was right. So long as you believe everything is Maya, you can do as you like.

PURANI: What is the truth in the Vama Marga, the left-hand path of Tantra?

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know. It must have been prescribed with the idea of taking up the lower forces and pulling them high up.

But to go back to our original point about the law of Nature, remember a young Sannyasi who came to Baroda. He had lons nails and used to sit under the trees. Deshpande and I went to see him. I asked him, "What is the standard of action?" He replied, "There is no standard. The thief may be right in stealing because it is his dharma." Deshpande was very angry to hear that. I said, "It is only a point of view."

But all this doesn't mean that there is no consequence for one's action. As Christ said, offences come, but woe unto him by whom the offence cometh. There is a law of being which throws back upon you the murder, the persecution you carry out. "When you inflict suffering on others out of self-will, the suffering will come back to you. That is the law of Karma.

PURANI: Somnath Maitra used to quote to me that sloka of Duryodhana: "I know what is dharma, I know what is dharma, but I cannot gather force to do what I should."

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SRI AUROBINDO: The whole question arises when you want to change yourself or change others. Then you say, "This should not be; that should go" and so on. You introduce a rule of the mind into the vital world; but when you go above the mind, you come in contact with your Spirit and the nature of that Spirit is Light, Truth, Purity. When you observe discipline, it is for the Spirit, not for the sake of a mental rule. If you want to attain the standard of Purity, you have to reject what comes in the way. So also about lying. You have to stop lying if you want the Spirit's Truth; you stop not because of the mental principle of right and wrong but for the sake of the Spirit. There are many parts in one's nature. One part may try to reject things that contradict one another and that are contrary to the change desired but another part may prevent it. As the Roman poet said, "I see the better and approve of it, but I follow the worse."¹

PURANI: The Vedanta says, "There are two sets of teeth in an elephant-one for showing, the other for chewing."

SRI AUROBINDO: All this doesn't mean that there should be no moral standard. Humanity requires a certain standard. It helps it's progress. But from the spiritual point of view, that may also be necessary. Even the Asuras have a place. Ravana had one. As they say, it takes all sorts to make a world.

But again, all this does not mean that one should not recognise other planes. There is the vital plane whose law is force and success. If you have force you win; if you have speed you outrun others. The laws of the mind come in to act as a means of balance. They balance diverse things to make a mental-vital standard.

It you go above the vital and mental planes, you come to a point where the Gita's "Sarvadharman parityajya", "Abandon all dharmas", becomes the principle. But there if you leave out the last portion of the sloka—"Mamekam saranam vraja", "Take refuge in me"-then you follow your ego and you fall; you become either an Asura or a lunatic or an animal. Even the animals have some sense right and wrong. That is very well shown in Kipling's Jungle Book. Have you read it?

NIRODBARAN: No.

SRI AUROBINDO: Kipling shows how the pack falls on the one that fails to keep up the general standard. By human contact the animals develop their sense of right and wrong more and more.

¹"Video meliora probocque, deteriora sequor."

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At this point the Mother came in with Sri Aurobindo's dinner. So we stopped.

23 JANUARY 1939

The previous day's discussion about destiny, fate and the Cosmic Spirit had bewildered Nirodbaran. He wanted to get out of his bewilderment by asking a few more questions. But he was hesitant and expressed his feeling

PURANI: Nirodbaran intends to ask you a question but he hesitates. It is the contradiction in what you said yesterday that he is unable to understand.

NIRODBARAN: Once you said that the Cosmic Spirit might be leading Hitler on the way he is going and then you said that the Cosmic Spirit is not responsible for Hitler's actions. These two statements seem contradictory to me.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is generally the case when one states some truth: one has to express it in contradictory terms.

PURANI: Nirodbaran expected intellectual consistency in your views.

SRI AUROBINDO: Truth is not always consistent. But contradiction here does not mean that there is no responsibility or no morality, no right and wrong. The individual is responsible because he accepts the action of the Gunas, the qualities of Nature

NIRODBARAN: But is it not the Cosmic Spirit that makes him accept them?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, the Cosmic Spirit doesn't act directly. It acts through the individual, not the true individual but the individual in Nature, what may be called the individual personality. The personality, of course, is not the Person: it is something formed in the mental, vital and physical nature.

NIRODBARAN: Well, if the Cosmic Spirit doesn't act through the Person, it acts through the personality or nature. If it is acting through my nature, where is my responsibility?

SRI AUROBINDO: But the individual in Nature has the freedom to accept Nature or to refuse. Arjuna refused to fight and eighteen chapters of the Gita followed to make him fight. It is Purusha in the individual that can withdraw its sanction from

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Prakriti and then Prakriti cannot act according to its own movement. Real liberation comes when the Purusha awakes and feels itself free and lord.

NIRODBARAN: But generally the Purusha is bound.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, usually the Purusha consents to Prakriti. But it can refuse consent and stand apart. It can be free only by getting out of the evolution—that is, by being free from the working of the ego and nature-personality.

The Cosmic Spirit is not in the evolution whereas the individual is. It contains in itself both good and evil.

NIRODBARAN: Then it is responsible for evil.

SRI AUROBINDO: First of all, it does not have a human standard of good and evil. You can't say that it is responsible for the one and not the other. Through good and evil, light and darkness, the Cosmic Spirit works out its purpose.

NIRODBARAN: Why is Hitler made to pursue this path of violence, repression, etc.?

SRI AUROBINDO: Because he has to evolve through his own nature.

PURANI: When the freedom of the Purusha is won, then does it become possible for the individual to look beyond the Cosmic spirit to the Transcendent?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; that is to say, instead of being an instrument of ignorant Nature, you become the instrument of the Divine.

PURANI: Do you mean by the Cosmic Spirit the Impersonal Consciousness?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, the Cosmic Spirit is a personality but not in our narrow sense. It is both dynamic and static, Saguna and Nirguna, the Nirguna supporting the Saguna.

PURANI:You have said that the psychic being is also a personality.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, there is the psychic Purusha.

PURANI: Does the psychic being develop from birth to birth?

SRI AUROBINDO: It is not the psychic being itself that develops. But it guides the evolution of the individual by increasing the psychic element in the nature of the individual.

PURANI: If the psychic being is a spark of the Divine, then its function is the same as that of the Vedic Agni as "the leader of the journey".

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Agni is the god of the psychic and leads the journey upward.

PURANI: How does the psychic carry the personality formed in this life into another?

SRI AUROBINDO: After death it gathers its elements and carries them onwards to another birth. But it is not the same personality that is born. People easily misunderstand these things, especially when put in terms of the mind, because the process is very subtle. The past personality is taken only as the basis and a new personality is formed according to its own requirements in future evolution. If it were the same personality, then it would act exactly in the same manner and there would be no meaning in that.

PURANI: Does the experience of the Cosmic Spirit correspond, to the experience of the Overmind?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes; but you can have the experience of the Cosmic Consciousness on any level. Generally you have it on the level of the Higher Mind where you feel the two aspects- dynamic and the static—as separate. But as you go above, you find the Overmind arching over all other levels and the two aspects are gathered together in it and combined in the same consciousness.

(Turning to Nirodbaran) To come back to Hitler: Hitler is responsible so long as he feels he is Hitler. In his youth, he was considered an amusing crank and nobody took any notice of him. It is the vital possession that gives him his size and greatness. Without this vital power he would be a crudely amiable fellow with some hobbies and eccentricities. It is in this kind of person whose psychic is undeveloped and weak that a possession is possible. There is nothing in the being that can resist the Power. In his latest photographs I find he is becoming more and more criminal and going down very fast. In two photographs there was the psychic element a little in front One showed him weeping before his mother's grave—but that was more fictitious than real. The other showing his visit to his old village was genuine; he felt something there.

NIRODBARAN: Has he what you once called the "London- cabman's psychic"?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Mussolini has comparatively a better developed psychic and a strong vital. In his latest photograph he seems to have weakened. Either he is unwell or he is aging or perhaps he has misused his powers and hence the change.

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NIRODBARAN: Does Hitler feel responsible for his actions?

SRI AUROBINDO: He feels responsible not only for himself but for the whole of Germany!

PURANI: And for all the "Aryans"!

SRI AUROBINDO: Of course, all Aryans are Germans. To get rid of responsibility you must get rid of ego, that is to say, of the mental, vital and other personalities.

NIRODBARAN: If one could act without responsibility one would be free.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is not easy. You can try and see. You may say you are not responsible but internally you will feel that you are.

In order to be free from this responsibility you must become free first in consciousness. There are three ways of attaining that freedom: first, by separating the Purusha from Prakriti and realising its freedom from it; second, by realising the Self, Atman or Spirit free from the universe, the cosmic nature; third, by identifying with the Transcendent above—realising the Paramatman. You can also have freedom by merging with the Shunyam, the Void, of the Buddhists.

Satyeyndra: In the second and third ways, does the Purusha remain the witness?

SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. It may in the first realisation because the Purusha separates itself from Prakriti and is then the witness. In the second realisation, that of the Self, you need not be the witness of the universe or its movement. The Self may remain ingathered without witnessing anything. There are many conditions into which the Spirit may pass.

A certain kind of Nirvana experience is necessary even for this Yoga. That is, the world must become in a way nothing to you because, as it is constituted, it is a work of ignorance. Then only can you enter the true creation and bring into existence here the world of Truth and Light.

Satyeyndra: When Krishna in the Gita says, "You will find the Self in all and all in the Self and then in me", what Self is meant?

SRI AUROBINDO: It is the Brahmic Consciousness. You see .the one Consciousness in all and you see all contained in the one Self and then you rise above to the realisation of the One that is both personal and impersonal and beyond either.

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DR. BECHARLAL: Is it true that men with a spiritual bent are born with Adhikara, fitness?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

DR. BECHARLAL: Can one acquire Adhikara?

SRI AUROBINDO: Certainly. When we say a man is not ready, we mean he has not got the Adhikara but he can acquire it by preparing himself.

Satyeyndra: When one thinks of this problem of manifestation, one gets tired of it.

SRI AUROBINDO: Being tired is not enough. One must have the power to be free either by moving out of the evolution or by attaining to something that would not bind one to the evolution. Many Yogis, when they go beyond into the Spirit of cosmic consciousness, allow the cosmic nature to act through them without any sense of individual responsibility. They remain concentrated in or identified with the higher consciousness and their nature sometimes moves in an uncontrolled way; then you find them using the foul language of which Dilip complains. The Yogis are not bound by manners or the rules of decency. They act like Jada, Bala, Unmatta or Pishacha, because their consciousness is linked up with something above while their nature is allowed to act freely.¹ When one attains that higher consciousness, one doesn't regret, saying, "I didn't do that which was good, I did that which was evil.".

Another difficulty—most of the Yogis are very bad philosopher and can't put their experience into mental terms. But that doesn't mean they have no real experience. They get what they want and are satisfied with it and don't care for intellectual developments. When you look for things in a Yogi which he never cared to have, you get disappointed like Lady Batesman who objects to Maharshi's spittiing on the floor. Such actions have no bearing on one's spirituality.

Satyeyndra: Can you say that in the aspect of Sat (Pure Being) Chit (Consciousness) is absent?

¹"...the outer nature may become the field of an apparent incoherence although all within is luminous with the Self. Thus we become outwardly inert and inactive, moved by circumstance or forces but not self-mobile (jadavat), even though the consciousness is enlightened within, or as a child (balavat) though within is a plenary self-knowledge, or as one inconsequent in thought and impulse (unmattavat) though within is an utter calm and serenity, or as the wild and disordered soul (pishachavat) though inwardly there is the purity and poise of the Spirit." - Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine.

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SRI AUROBINDO: No—even in what you call Pure Being, consciousness is there: only, it is held back or inactive, so to speak, while the Sat aspect is in front.

PURANI: You have so often said that Sachchidananda is a triune reality and no part of it can be thought of as separate.

Satyeyndra: The difficulty arises when one has seen many experiments of different systems. One finds great difficulty in choosing among them.

PURANI: Does one always choose by the mind?

Satyeyndra: There is no other go. Cannot the study of different systems lead one to knowledge?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it can help in making an approach to path of knowledge. Philosophy is an attempt to explain to the human mind what is really beyond it. But to the Western mind thought is the highest thing. If you can think out an explanation of the universe, you have reached the goal of mental activity. The Westerners use the mind for the sake of using the mind. That leads nowhere. (To Nirodbaran) So you see, the universe is not a question of logic but of consciousness.

NIRODBARAN: But is the study of philosophy indispensable? One can know only by experience.

SRI AUROBINDO: You can know by experience all that philosophy has to teach and something more which it cannot give.

Satyeyndra: The Sankhya division between Purusha and Prakriti is in one sense sharp and helps one to get away from bondage to Prakriti.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is categorical. They believe in two realities, Purusha and Prakriti, as the final elements. Sankhya and Buddhism were first appreciated by Europe because of their sharp distinction between Purusha, who is consciousness, and Prakriti, which they believe to be Jada, inconscient. According to Sankhya, Prakriti is Jada and it is the light of the consciousness the Purusha that makes it appear conscious; they believe it even Buddhi, intellect, is Jada. We in this Yoga need not accept it. The Westerners liked Buddhism for its strong rationalism. Its logic led up to Shunyam, the void: the non-being state is the aim and there is a strong note of agnosticism in Buddhism, which appeals to the Europeans. In Buddhism, the universe is something : hangs in the air, so to speak. You don't know on what basis it stands.

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There is a certain similarity also between Sankhya and Science, for in Science they believe that evolution begins with the Jada, the Inconscient, and goes up the scale of consciousness.

Satyeyndra; We have so much darkness in us that we can't empty it out by our little efforts. It seems even a little light will do.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, a little light, a mere candle-light like mental illumination will not do. There must be the full sunlight. It is a slow process. If you have an opening, more and more light can come.

NIRODBARAN: How shall one accept the light if one doesn't know what it is?

SRI AUROBINDO: That means something in you doesn't want it. Otherwise there is hardly any difficulty. So far as the world is concerned, it has always refused to accept the light when it came. The test for knowing whether the world is ready or not for the Divine is its acceptance or refusal of the light. For example, when Christ was sentenced, Pilate had the right to pardon one of the four condemned. He asked the Jews whom they wanted to be freed. They wanted the robber Barabbas to be released and not Christ. Nowadays scholars say that Barabbas was not a robber but a national hero, or, if a robber, one like Robin Hood, I suppose, or else a political opponent. At any rate, a romantic robber was preferred to the Son of God, or a political opponent to the teacher of Truth.

NIRODBARAN: You said experience brings knowledge. But sometimes when I feel a pressure in the head I don't know if it is a working of the higher consciousness.

SRI AUROBINDO: You will know it slowly. Till then you have to accept it from the Guru. First Shravana (hearing) and then, Manana (remembering), as they say.

24 JANUARY 1939

There was some discussion of local politics and a reference to a turn in fortunes of a political leader. Then we came to general topics.

SRI AUROBINDO: There is a Greek saying that when one becomes too fortunate and powerful, he becomes insolent and commits excesses and that strikes against the throne of God and then retribution begins. X ought to have known that. Y was never

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like this. He was never insolent, never pushed things too far. When somebody asked him to arrest one of his opponents, he replied, "Ça, c'est une mauvaise politique." ("That's bad politics.")

Hitler also is pushing things too far. That is why he cannot last long.

There is a famous Greek story about Polycrates, a tyrant of Samos. Do you know it? This tyrant wanted to make friends with another tyrant. The latter replied, "You are too fortunate. You must sacrifice something or have some little misfortune to compensate for your good luck. Otherwise I can't ally myself with you." Polycrates threw his most precious ring into a river as a sacrifice. The ring was swallowed by a fish. That fish was caught by a fisherman and brought with the ring inside it to Polycrates. When the other tyrant heard about it, he said, "You are too lucky. I will never ally myself with you." Polycrates was later killed by his people who had risen in revolt. "The ring of Polycrates" is a proverbial expression in English.

A Roman poet says something like, "The giants fall by their own mass." There is a similar idea in India: "The Asuras are too heavy for the earth to bear." But I must say some Asuras are clever enough to escape and flourish in spite of proverbs!

PURANI: Can it be affirmed that the Asuras by their action meddle too much in the law of evolution or that they contradict the very fundamental urge of humanity?

SRI AUROBINDO (after keeping silent for a time): There is no such general law. The thing is that the Asuras can't keep a balance. The law that demands balance then strikes.

A long silence followed. Nirodbaran, after some hesitation, blurted out a question that had been revolving in his mind.

NIRODBARAN: Somebody has asked: Did Vivekananda bring into Ramakrishna's work a spirit not intended by Ramakrishna?

SRI AUROBINDO: In what way?

NIRODBARAN: He spoke of service to humanity.

SRI AUROBINDO: But was that Ramakrishna's idea which Vivekananda followed? Did Ramakrishna ask him to do service to humanity and did Vivekananda bring into this work what was not intended by his Master?

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